Evolution vs Intelligent Design
Alex has started a debate with me in another thread. I thought I'd pull it up front so anyone can feel free to chime in.
The question before us is Evolution vs Intelligent Design.
Did People evolve slowly and naturally from our Earths start 4.5 billion years ago, or was there something else giving it a lending hand?
ID (Intelligent Design) means whatever you want it to mean. Whether it be God, Allah, Aliens, Zeus or the Spaghetti Monster from the depths.
Since this is really a huge, huge debate, we may have to break it into several posts.
rules:
1. No name calling, or slighting (ie. Watching too much Fox, or too much public education, or watching too much sci-fi)
2. No calling anyone a liar.
3. If you want to dispute something, some proof must be given. If we get to a point where neither person cedes the point, we can agree to disagree.
4. Be polite, this is a debate, not politics.
5. If you wish to disagree with someone, please read their post in full, instead of assuming what you think they said.
6. Try to keep the posts, within reason.
Since its my blog, I'll start.
Instead of jumping right into Darwin's Theory of Evolution, he seemed to have skipped some 4 billion years worth of history. So lets start there.
**************
4.5 Billion years ago, after our Earth was formed from some Big Bang as is the popular theory now, it was a big mess.
But no one ever seems to explain what kicked off the Big Bang to begin with.
Lets skip that for now, but it is a huge hole, as big bangs, don't just happen.
So once here, this big mess of particles is swirling around in a pool and forming into our Earth as it cools down. Then somewhere out of this primordial mush, life appears. Suddenly, inexplicably and without warning. Only 500 million years into its cooling, all of the sudden there was life. And not 1, but 2 forms of life. Both single cell, both completely unique.
We have a pretty good idea of what was in the primordial mush. What elements, what the temperature was, pressure, etc.. And yet, after over 100 years of testing, and experimenting, we have yet to be able to reproduce the creation of life, that just spontaneously erupted.
we now jump forward 3.5 billion years. So only 530 million years ago. We have 3.5 billion years of single cell organisms living, and dieing out.
Then like magic, BAM! within a 5-10 million year span, as soon as oxygen was available we have what has become known as the Cambriam Explosion. In that time all major groups of complex animal life subgroupings within the animal kingdom appeared in large numbers. Not just 1 or 5 or 10, but 26 animal phyla appeared. Sponges, trilobites, molusks, etc..
This was huge and widespread.
There are no in between fossils at all to suggest life went from single cell to mutli-cell at all. Not One, in over 130 years of trying to find them.
Now lets jump another 400 million years to only 110 million years ago when flowering plants, simply appeared on the Earth. No major upheaval, nothing like them previous in any known fossil record. Totally different from every form of life previously on the planet, and yet they covered the Earth. No evidence of Evolution at all.
Even Darwin himself admitted they were "an abominable mystery."
The fact is, most life has shown up on this planet, fully formed and developed, lives approximately a million years and dies off.
Does evolution in micro stages happen? Yes. A beak changes, weight is put on, or lost. Size increases or gets smaller. But major changes on the Macro-Evolutionary scale, simply do not exist. Feel free to give any examples you feel dispute this.
It is easy enough to dismiss a few missing-links, between species. The pre-hominid to the human, or whatever. But every single species that has ever existed. There are no fossil records, that link any pre-ancestor, to some later species.
So Intelligent design suggests that life went along for a while, and then was given some sort of jump-start that crammed 100 million years into 1 or 2 million. Or life was dumped on the planet.
I look forward to hearing your response. Sorry this got a bit long winded.
And yes, I do study science Alex.
This is not philosophy, this is science.
posted by Ben at 8:07 PM
50 Comments:
I'll admit my bias up front and then try and find the paper I wrote on the subject a couple years ago. I'm definately in the Design camp of things. Personally, I'd say that science, the theories and hypothosises (sp?), that fill in the gaps of what we can prove empirically, takes just as much philosophy to stomach as the other side of things.
Good luck
well i have a problem with rule 3 of your notes...as would anyone with this debate. if there were actual proof available it would settle the matter.
were this in a court of law there would not be enough either way to decide this. it is basically just making a decision on the preponderance of the evidence available. there is no hard and fast proof.
i fall in the middle of these camps actually. which is a difficult path to take, not the easier. i do believe in evolution, as there is proof of this that we as animals adapt to our surroundings for survival and in order to perpetuate each of our species. however, that does not explain our root origin.
if there were a big bang...where did that stuff come from? or has it been a repeating cycle throughout eternity? did some kind of divine being create the mess that went bang? are we even capable of understanding something so awsome as the creation of a universe? quite difficult.
personally i look to the simpler things to make my decisions. as i stated before that i believe in evolution, there are a lot of compelling issues for design. the inner workings of any plant or animal, emotions, and our thirst for knowledge point me toward design.
so if you fall on the side of design or a big bang...where did the matter come from that was there...or where did this divine being come from?
shaun g
Good points Shaun. As for rule 3, I was just stating, proof is required to shoot down what someone else said. You are free to dispute a point. But you just can't say, well thats not true.
And you seem to agree with me on many points. Micro Evolution does exist. But to extrapolate that and say "therefore Macro Evolution must exist" is the problem. (to me.)
And you are right about the big bang as well, which is why I suggested we not start there. Otherwise we get into, well if God started it, where did God come from? type of questions.
I was trying to stick to what we can understand. And facts that disprove natural Evolution as Darwin tried to prove.
And I think my 2 main examples of the Cambriam Explosion 500 million years ago, and flowering plants of 100 million years ago, both show a severe lack of evolution. And blow holes into Darwin's theory.
For a theory to become a law, it must work, All the Time.
So where did they come from?
When all other logical answers have been disproved, its time to look at the illogical.
It's certainly true that we don't know what caused the Big Bang (which has been pretty well proven...http://lambda.gsfc.nasa.gov/product/cobe/) or what sparked life. There's plenty of room for God there. With a little luck the Large Hadron collidor will help answer some of that (or wipe us all out, whichever comes first :) ).
"When all other logical answers have been disproved, its time to look at the illogical."
This is a logical phallacy, an arguement from ignorance. Just because I don't know how the Egyptians built the pyramids doesn't mean an alien must have done it. There's just something I don't know yet.
There are many transitional fossils, and there are perfectly reasonable reasons why there are gaps. This site is a bit old, but explains it pretty well: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
Alex, interesting article. Haven't gotten all the way through it yet. Working on it.
Of course having Evolution, doesn't rule out ID. Nor does ID rule out Evol.
And I disagree on the illogical argument being of ignorance. Its an at the time thing. You look for the illogical(at the time) and when you figure it out, it becomes logical.
I have a nice article for you to read as well:
http://www.geocities.com/worldview_3/mathproofcreat.html
A scientific proof of ID.
Pretty interesting reading.
i still dont like the whole title of 'intelligent design'. lets just call it creationism
i do hate the answer that used to be thrown at me in school...'faith'.
sounds like a cheap cop out from a teacher that didnt have an answer.
i think that we all live in the matrix anyhow...we are just batteries. slaves to the machine that run our lives. just admit it.
shaun g
"i think that we all live in the matrix anyhow...we are just batteries. slaves to the machine that run our lives. just admit it."
According to multi-verse ideas, that's actually pretty likely. :D
"I have a nice article for you to read as well:
http://www.geocities.com/worldview_3/mathproofcreat.html
A scientific proof of ID."
Not so much interesting as standard issue creationism. His arguement is that because it's highly improbable, evolution is impossible. This is another logical phallacy.
Argument from Personal Incredulity - because a person cannot conceive of or imagine a solution, no solution therefore exists. Nature, however, is not limited to the imagination of Behe, or even evolutionary biologists. There are many very complex biological systems in nature, and it is not always possible to think of a compelling evolutionary sequence to explain every step in the formation of such systems. This does not rule out the possibility that the complex system in question did in fact evolve.
He also basing much of his reasoning on Dr. Michael Behe, whose book has been pretty well torn to shreds by scientists who actually know what they're talking about.
http://bostonreview.net/BR21.6/orr.html
The entire "Irreducible Complexity of "Life"" section is proven bunk. Darwin himself recognized that structures may have evolved from precursors that had completely different functions. A classic example is that of bird wings. Half a wing is certainly no good for flying, and many creationists have therefore argued that it could not have been selected. But there is fossil evidence of bird ancestors with half wings, probably for stabilization during long jumps or gliding descents, regulating body temp, catching insects, etc. There is evidence that insect wing precursors were used for skimming along the surface of water, before they were ever used for flight.
There is no scientific proof of ID, because ID isn't science. They have no tests, experiments, or peer-reviewed papers. It's an attempt to strip the God out of creationism and look like science to the layman.
http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2002/1106id.shtml (this is one, I could easily list 20 other scientific organizations that say the same thing)
ID is just the political arm of the Creationist movement. None of it is science.
Read through your article, but it still leaves many holes, that are simply not explained with evolution.
Evolution is a slow gradual change, not some rapid switchover. Evolution doesn't speed up and slow down. That just an excuse to fill in the gaps that cannot be explained.
One of the "proven" evolutions listed was the horse series. Eohippus to Equus. But we cannot be certain Eohippus did not in fact evolve into Equus by micro-evolution. If viewed in a plausible sequence, their body changes were never very dramatic.
The real problems come early on with evolution come with the Cambrian Explosion, the flowered plants and then later with natural disasters.
245 million years ago and 65 million years ago, the Earth suffered 90% extinction of all species.
And in both cases, there was a rapid refilling of the freshly vacated environmental niches with entirely new species.
Where is the slow gradual build up?
I think you too easily dismissed the odds argument, but I'll read what you said debunks it.
And you are breaking the rules. In a debate, you should be open to the possibility that you are wrong. But you have long made up your mind.
I could say the same thing. Evolution theory is just a way to push God out of our lives. And scoffing at mathematical proofs, is just your way to justify yourself.
If mathematical proofs are not science, what is? Looking at a few scraps of a jaw bone and saying, well this obviously evolved from that.
Science is about observation, collecting data, and trying to make well informed decisions. Then trying to prove it mathematically.
Ok, just read your article that ripped the Behe book to shreds.
I have to say, I am underwhelmed to a point of laughing at it. His whole argument could be boiled down to:
"Well your just wrong."
Similar to your argument. And the news release, thats just a science group saying please don't teach ID.
I remember a time when groups said please don't teach Evolution, its not really science.
Show me how Evolution explains the rapid transitions.
Show me how Evolution explains how flowered plants show up, when there was nothing even similar to them before.
And show me how 2 different life forms, appeared at approximately the same time.
In the paper he first off said we had 4 billion years before life showed up, but that is incorrect, it was only 500 million.
But he discussed how things didn't have to be perfect, just a good fit, then the next piece and the next and so on. So you didn't have to build the entire 100 block sequence in one go. Just 2 at a time.
But that still doesn't explain, the proof shows the odds that just 2 compounds come together when 100 was needed.
So let me explain it this way. Lets use the deck of card theory. You have to take a deck of cards and shuffle them 10 times and look at them. They need to be in a strict order. A-K, etc.. for all 4 suits. If you don't get the right combo, you try again, and again.
Now when you finally get them in order, that is 1 set.
Problem is you need 50 sets, to make it work.
So all this paper does is suggest instead of shuffling 50 decks of cards to get them all in order, I just shuffle 1, till I get it right, then the next and so on.
Problem is, we have 2 completed structures. So that means you have 2 people working on the same thing.
And they finish at about the same time???
I liked the one example. If I receive random sequences from space, no biggie. But if I hear 3.1415926... till I have the first 100 decimal numbers of Pi, I'll believe it came from an intelligent source.
Why, because I observed the sequence. I calculated the odds that it occurred naturally, not once, but twice. And the odds are 0. Not twice, but even once.
Therefore, there must have been something else, we don't understand, involved.
on a bit of a tangent...do play devil's advocate, no pun intended in this discussion, Marx had a quote about religion being man made.
that man cannot rationalize the terminal state of life. that simply living just to die cannot make enough sense, so there must be more.
as impossible to know yes or no to that angle, it must be considered. and faith rears it's head again.
if you are a reader of the bible...at least those parts in the book that we currently call the bible, not including those books and parts that were withheld.
why did god routinely communicate with men in the old testament, but in the new he doesnt show up at all? or are we in the midst of the 1000 years of reign under that anticrist and dont even know it...? is god absent at the moment. did we miss something?
lot o' questions.
and another fun fact. i have to attend classes now and again on dealing with people that are MHMR. we are supposed to be 'kind and gentle' understanding and whatnot. well, that is nice, but sometimes there isnt time for that. i cant tell you how many times that i have met Jesus. or how many people were just acting on orders from god.
well, that stuff will get you landed in the looney bin or prison (depending on what you did). but back in the day, you were heralded as a prophet or a wise man. now days if you sacrifice your son on an altar you are headed straight for the injection.
funny how times change.
as the magna carta states that all people will naturally act as a community and police themselves...is religion just a tool in order to control the masses? it has certainly been used as such. but does that give it truth?
all this doesnt make much difference in the evolution issue, but certainly shows at the least that we change as humans, we adapt, if you wanna call that evolution of sorts.
shaun g
"Ok, just read your article that ripped the Behe book to shreds.
I have to say, I am underwhelmed to a point of laughing at it. His whole argument could be boiled down to:
"Well your just wrong."
Similar to your argument."
That's not my arguement at all. There are eight paragraphs there explaining how Behe's fundamental assumption is wrong. And I'm sure if I looked around more I could find others. Since everything he says after is based on that, there's nothing else to talk about.
The Cambrian Explosion is definitely a question we don't have a definitive answer for. There are lots of hypothesis. The whole thing is complicated by the sheer scale of time; lots of creatures from that time period simply didn't leave fossils. There have also, in the past ten or so years, been fossils discovered that indicate the Explosion may not have been as sudden as Darwin and others originally thought: "Phylogenetic information from Early Cambrian olenellid trilobites was also used in a stochastic approach based on two continuous time models to test the hypothesis that rates of speciation were unusually high during the Cambrian radiation. No statistical evidence was found to support this hypothesis. Instead, rates of evolution during the Cambrian radiation, at least those pertaining to speciation, were comparable to those that have occurred during other times of adaptive or taxic radiation throughout the history of life." (http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/43/1/229)
"If mathematical proofs are not science, what is? Looking at a few scraps of a jaw bone and saying, well this obviously evolved from that."
I don't see a mathematical proof backed up by observations and evidence. I see a guy sitting and thinking about things and coming up with a model to fit it.
"Problem is, we have 2 completed structures. So that means you have 2 people working on the same thing.
And they finish at about the same time???"
Unlikely, sure. But not impossible. Certainly not enough to jump to the supernatural.
It's kind of funny, but we actually don't disagree that much. We both allow for a God and agree that evolution happens, just to greater and lesser degrees.
The biggest difference is really that you believe ID is science and I believe it is (at best) pseudoscience.
Is that like a pseudodragon?
shaun g
just thought to lighten the convo.
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